sorry to start discourse again but I’m going to keep making the comparison between maleness and whiteness when other transmascs try to genuinely argue that they’re being discriminated against because they’re male, until it sinks in
conversation that just happened: guy acknowledged that society is set up to let men succeed, and minorities are upset about this. sometimes they direct their frustration at individual men for being complicit in the system. guy argues that this is something that needs to be addressed and we need to fight back against anti-male hatred.
conversation that is also happening amongst white people: society is set up to let white people succeed, and minorities are upset about this. sometimes they direct their frustration at individual white people for being complicit in the system. white people also argue that “hatred toward white people” is a substantial problem that needs to be addressed.
what’s the difference? both are reactions to immense structural power, and the perceived aggressors are acting on isolated impulse without societal support. they face consequences for challenging someone who has maleness / whiteness on their side and are fighting upward against embedded cultural pressures. for all intents and purposes, the hatred is occurring in smaller communities outside the mainstream, where those expressing animosity do not determine the material conditions of the recipient, e.g. access to housing, job opportunities, etc.
there are intersections with each of these identities that will alter the circumstances, but with all other things being equal, two people expressing animosity toward each other who differ on one of these axes will experience the asymmetry of societal / institutional power. society will favor a white able bodied trans man over a white able bodied trans woman. society will favor a white nonbinary autistic person over a brown nonbinary autistic person. you can qualify your specific experience with other facets of your identity but you cannot outright negate the benefits ascribed to you by maleness and/or whiteness, no matter the level of attachment you feel toward that label.
does it suck to have people dislike you? sure does. does it suck to have people assume you’re part of the problem when you’re doing your best not to? of course. does this warrant a response on the level of “I’m facing *discrimination* for being white/male”? no, and I’m sorry that people in your community are being rude. but you need to understand that using terms that allude to widescale inequalities for something that is happening to you on an interpersonal level is at best naive, and at worst minimizing the constant struggle that other marginalized people go through on the other side of the axis - and someone’s occasional lapse in composure when they say something harsh to you in response to their daily confrontation with mind-numbing bigotry is not the point.
this equally goes for measures meant to correct for historical institutional & social inequalities: if you are genuinely looking at support services and opportunities for women and thinking that it’s a point of discrimination that you’re not allowed to access these now that you’re a man, please also consider the majority opinion in this country where white people believe that colleges reserving spots for black people is unfairly discriminating against them. the reactions to institutional inequalities, and the efforts to re-balance the scales, are not themselves discrimination warranting your contempt.
I think there’s a lot of people arguing in favour and against the discriminations which trans masc people can face which doesn’t have a full analysis.
Like yeah men as a social class don’t typically face the same discrmimination that women do, the same way that white people generally don’t face the same discrimination that black people do.
But perception has a lot to do with the discrimination that people face. There’s been a lot of cases of dark skinned black people going from the UK to the US, and then being treated as English (with respect) rather than Black once they’ve spoken, I even had this happen as a light skinned person (USians are really good at clocking blackness - the only people who have ever called me racial slurs) when I stayed in the US for a while and the cops were called on me for looking for fireflies.
The discrimination is about people percieved as trans men, rather than cis men. I think there’s not enough talk among trans masc people about the differences people have experienced. Like how in the book “Working Guys” about trans masculine sex workers, while they have varied experiences, one of the main points the book makes is that there’s just no-one who has really spoken about anything before, and it’s important to listen to what people have experienced.
There’s a wide range of different types of bigotries that trans masculine people experience, which can happen at any time in their transition, or not happen! A trans man who passes even before T and is respected in his daily life, shouldn’t be used to dismiss a man who has been on T for years and finds passing difficult, but still experiences discrimination due to his masculine aspects.
Many people when given a new tool try to make it fit everything possible, and that does lead to some people pointing at all problems they face being given one name, when it might have multiple names. Even some long standing terms for serious societal issues are used in areas they never would have been used initially.
There’s many trans masc people who have said that they feel unwelcome in the trans and feminist community, or in their local offline community once they have transitioned, which I think is a problem, there may be interpersonal issues, but much like how callout posts are now properly identified as harmful, it’s fine to call out other harmful behaviours. Many people experience mind-numbing bigotry on all sides, and it’s still not good for hurt people to hurt people, whether someone is trans fem or trans masc or neither.
Additionally with measures for correcting historical institutional and societal inequalities, if a trans man has lived his life as a woman up until 1 year ago, with all of the historical insitutional and societal inequalities which that implies, he’s not suddenly going to be given the full benefits of cis malehood on his transition? While it doesn’t mean there should be one of those shitty “femmes and afabs” things, there should still be understanding and allowance that there is a distinct lack of trans men positions of influence or employment, much like there’s a lack of trans women in positions of influence or employment. Living with dysphoria fucks up your life somewhat before you get it under control. It’s common for trans people in general to drop out of education.
Much like there are initiatives to include trans masculine people in areas traditionally considered womens’ healthcare, such as how almost all the vaginal healthcare people I’ve spoken to within the last year have asked me preferred terms for my bits, there should be ways to understand that on average a white trans man is not going to have had the same opportunties as a white cis man. In the mean time it’s fine for trans men to be upset that they’re no longer able to access help they may have needed. In the book “Working Guys” (it’s a good book!) there’s men who don’t transition until they have earnt enough money to pay for their transition and provide a buffer, even though they didn’t like the sex work they were doing, because they knew their earning potential would be massively reduced after transition. I don’t think it’s good to extend that notion of “If you transition you will be worse off”.
thank you! I really appreciate this reply and the counterpoints + great book recommendation.
